axl
Still Wears Diapers
Posts: 11
|
Post by axl on Mar 7, 2009 15:39:49 GMT -5
Hey guys, what's up. I have a [probably stupid] question regarding modes and theory; I was wondering if anyone could help me out.
Alright, for any of you who have Adam Kadman's Guitar Grimoire (Scales and Modes Edition), you'll know what I'm talking about. Maybe I'm confused because of how they explain it; I don't know.
I understand that every major scale has 7 modes (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian). Now, they continue on in this book to show the charts of all the major scales and all their modes. What confuses me though, is they go on, for example, after showing F Major and its 7 modes, they go on to list an F Dorian scale and it's seven modes.
I know this is probably confusing, but it basically seems like they are saying each mode has seven modes of it's own that are named the same. (Note: I compared the F Major Dorian pattern with the F Dorian, mode II (which I thought was the dorian mode??? How can there be an F Dorian Dorian?) they listed and it doesn't match.)
I know this probably doesn't make any sense, but maybe someone can help me out. I'm confused.
Also, how do you know what mode to solo in?
|
|
n3r3m4c
IG Regular
Poop?
Posts: 195
|
Post by n3r3m4c on Mar 7, 2009 23:25:11 GMT -5
I don't know much about modes, and someone else will probably give you a better explanation, but I'm pretty sure each mode is just a different position in the major scale (as in 3 note per string positions with different roots going up the neck). Correct me if I'm wrong but if you take a c major scale, the C is ionian D is Dorian E is Phrygian, etc. If I got it right, I really don't think that each mode has their own modes. If you want to solo, just learn the minor scales and just improvise in the notes provided.
|
|
axl
Still Wears Diapers
Posts: 11
|
Post by axl on Mar 8, 2009 9:20:48 GMT -5
Well yea, you're right, I was just confused because they go on to list 7 additional modes (though they don't name them, they just list them as I, II, etc.) for each of the modes themselves.
Maybe what they are doing is just for sake of reference, showing an additional 7 patterns based on the seven different starting notes within each individual mode...because I guess, for argument's sake, that could go on forever (until you start needlessly repeating patterns. That would explain why they list 7 different patterns (modes, if you will) for each of the modes.
I'm pretty good at improvisation/shredding, but I'm really trying to take the time to understand more of the theory and be able to pick out a better starting point beforehand; that's why I'm trying to figure this stuff out. I know different modes have different voicings (players like Yngwie are known to use particular modes more to get their sound), that's why I'm trying to get a better understanding of when and where to use what mode, or how you even know which mode to use. I'm really sick of just shredding in the known minor, major, and pentatonic scales in the Ionian mode. It doesn't sound unique and the patterns get boring...I really want to be a better guitar player than that.
Okay, I'll quit rambling now, haha. Thanks for replying.
|
|
|
Post by Torkin on Mar 8, 2009 12:55:59 GMT -5
Yeah that is true about modes and players, I think yngwie's fav is phrygian mode or phrygian dominant. Think about it this way: by changing the root of the scale, you change the sound.
However, hang on in there, there are some guys who know theory well in here, they will likely explain this to you.
|
|
|
Post by thenotshredder on Mar 9, 2009 11:49:11 GMT -5
There is a difference, albeit with some overlap, between modes and scales, as I see it. Modes are when you take a scale, such as harmonic minor or melodic minor, and use different notes in the scale as the tonic (for example, the second mode of the A melodic minor scale is awesome/weird). Don't bother with that "phrygian/ionian" bullcrap: it's helpful if all you know is the major scale, but it gets confusing when you start using different scales. Just call them the first/second/third/etc. mode of X scale, but remember, too, that certain scales that have their own names can also be considered modes of other scales.
Experiment with the fourth mode of harmonic minor (using D as the home/final in the A harmonic minor scale, for example). It's totally badass.
|
|
axl
Still Wears Diapers
Posts: 11
|
Post by axl on Mar 9, 2009 13:09:09 GMT -5
There is a difference, albeit with some overlap, between modes and scales, as I see it. Modes are when you take a scale, such as harmonic minor or melodic minor, and use different notes in the scale as the tonic (for example, the second mode of the A melodic minor scale is awesome/weird). Don't bother with that "phrygian/ionian" bullcrap: it's helpful if all you know is the major scale, but it gets confusing when you start using different scales. Just call them the first/second/third/etc. mode of X scale, but remember, too, that certain scales that have their own names can also be considered modes of other scales. Alright, that explains things a bit better. There's X scale, a certain number of modes (depending on number of tones in the scale) in it, and then basically all this other crap listed in this book after that is just different patterns/scales you can use within those modes (depending on starting position). Right? Wow, that's got a really cool sound to it. The beginning/end of the scale, played straight through, has a very, I don't know, Eastern vibe to it. I know you said not to worry about it, but this mode is so cool I had to look up it's name for reference: Dorian #4. It's got a pretty complex chord formula from what I see....probably why it sounds so cool/wierd. I'll experiment with the first mode you mentioned too (I've only really memorised the I mode of major, minor, and pentatonic scales, and the III [Phrygian] mode of the major scale because it sounds cool). I do have another question though/....has anybody else ever tried to use whole tone scales? Pretty easy to memorise/play, but I can't find a melody or use for them...I've done some looking and I guess it's because it has no tonal center or something?
|
|
|
Post by thenotshredder on Mar 9, 2009 15:20:26 GMT -5
Whole-tone scales are great for fucking with blueswanklers.
|
|
|
Post by endless on Mar 10, 2009 4:56:23 GMT -5
Could the "modes" in the book just be the modes of the major scale, but written as if the listed mode is the parent scale? Like, C Major(Ionian) = D Dorian = E Phrygian...same notes, different root. C major's second mode is D Dorian, so D Dorian/Mode II would be the same as E Phrygian. That's the only way it makes sense to me. Yup...really atonal. Your not going to get much direction from them. No strong 'pull' towards any one note. Good for jazzy augmented chords, and places where not having clear tonality is desired(maybe some kind of funky key change?). They don't have the aggressive qualities of diminished or chromatic, but it still evokes its own brand of emotional negativity, like any atonal scale, if used on it's own a lot. They can sound "magical"... you'll often hear them in scores for dream sequences, flashbacks, and such. I use them for short phrases, or parts of phrases to inject some of that spacey 'magic' quality. Simple arpeggio example(play slow and let notes ring for best effect): Aaug Am D-------3-------3--------2-------2- A----4-------4--------3-------3---- E-5-------5--------5-------5------- Aaug A D-------3-------3--------2-------2- A----4-------4--------4-------4---- E-5-------5--------5-------5------- A lot of whole-tone-ish phrases fit into Lydian and Phrygian(Edit:or any other) modes: (C# phrygian) D----6-4----6-4--------- A--5------5------4-2-4-- E-------------------------- Just about anything Lydian is going to sound "spacey" and "magical" as well... probably why it's used for the Jetsons theme, and (I think) numerous songs in the Legend of Zelda game series. (Heavily edited for mistakes...if something doesn't seem right, let me know...it's f**kin' late and my head might not be working 100%)
|
|
|
Post by thenotshredder on Mar 10, 2009 8:28:09 GMT -5
Ummm, the second mode of C major is D Dorian. The mode with a final of B in C major is B Locrian.
|
|
|
Post by thenotshredder on Mar 10, 2009 8:29:28 GMT -5
Also, that same "whole-tone-ish" phrase would fit in any other mode of the major scale, you'd just have to move it so the D is on the fourth scale degree of the major scale.
|
|
|
Post by endless on Mar 10, 2009 14:41:56 GMT -5
Changes made. I actually had it right, but then I changed the key and confused myself while "correcting" the notes. True.
|
|
|
Post by piratemetalstu on May 11, 2009 22:15:43 GMT -5
Whole-Tone scales are cool for making people laugh also, as they go wtf why are you making Atari noises on your guitar. I use one whole-tone lick in one of my solos though, and it sounds badass. its a C harmonic minor progression and I legato/string skip it over a B augmented.
|
|
|
Post by Schweiny on Jun 18, 2009 20:33:01 GMT -5
The seven modes of the major scale are kinda like 7 sides of the same dice.
If u set up the seven tones that make up the scale and give them numbers: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 (fx. A major: c-d-e-f-g-a-b)
Now, the scale (this seven note sequence) repeats it self over and over again. If we start from tone number one the mode is called Major, if we start from number 2 the mode is called Dorian and so on. The scale stays the same and the notes are always in the same but we start from different roots (tone nr.1 = root tone).
Than we go onto the homechords. A basic 3chord is made up of root (nr.1), 3rd and 5th (fx. C-major: c-e-g). Now if we do this to all the notes in the major scale we wind up with the homechords: Major, minor, minor, major, major, minor, diminished). Now we notice that major has 3 modes, minor has 3 modes and dim has one mode.
By playing C major scale over C major scale we are just in root position (scale nr. 1 over chord nr. 1). Now if we would go crazy and play, say Lydian (mode nr. 4) over C major chord (notice that Lydian is mode nr. 4 and has a major homechord), we would be implying that we in fact playing over a C major chord that is not nr. 1 but nr. 4 (that would mean that we are in fact NOT in the key of C major but in the key of G major (in that key the C major chord is nr. 4)) since Lydian is mode nr. 4.
Even though people here in the western world don't have any musical training they have been listening to the same music all their lives and their brain has absorbed "what scale goes with what chord" and will notice when you play the "wrong scale" over some chord. This is called jazz.
|
|
|
Post by patril0mic on Jun 24, 2009 15:30:08 GMT -5
Even though people here in the western world don't have any musical training they have been listening to the same music all their lives and their brain has absorbed "what scale goes with what chord" and will notice when you play the "wrong scale" over some chord. This is called jazz.
|
|